Here we go, reflections on the theological/geographical reality of living betwixt (I’ve always wanted to use that word) The Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College and the megachurch Willow Creek. Live from the banks of the Mississippi where I am away at camp, Wired Jesus is back.
Links Mentioned in the Podcast:
Questions of Faith and Doubt
The Edge of Faith
Debate God
Paradoxology
The Unnecessary Pastor
Voxtree Podcast
A Different Perspective
The Society of Mutual Autopsy
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Wow. I was bummed by the way you unloaded on Willow Creek. You are more critical of them than those ol-time-pentecostal big-hair grannies.
You talked about them being ot of touch, but they ARE the ones with the huge crowds, And other churches are learning from them. Granted, we pick and choose selectively, cuz they are kinda funny about some things, but they are obsessively in-touch and inclusive, if you ask me.
Tom, do you think that your own navel-gazing has left you out of touch? Doubt is a fact of life, like the law of gravity and the weakness of the flesh. But do you have to give it a place equal to faith? It really does come off that way.
This kind of thinking is why I am no longer in the Catholic OR Lutheran churches. I want answers. Those answers have had to work hard to get me on board, and I recognize that we see through a glass darkly. But there is such thing as truth, and right, and absolutes. And they are worth pursuing.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Thanks for the podcast. Willow Creek really got hot back when some of the 85 Bears (aka “Superbowl Shuffle”) started attending. Haven’t yet checked out the Billy Graham Center yet, got to do that someday.
Hope you had a good time at Agustana. I was there a few weeks ago with about 150 bicyclists doing an around the state ride. At the same time there was a Sturgis Motorcycle Rally / Show going on over in Devenport. There is a message behind all of that, but I have no idea what it is.
Don makes some decent points about Willow. They seem to be the go to place along with Saddleback and a few others that many turn to for ministry ideas. I have found in my experiences that many post-moderns (PM’S) are searching for answers as well. Modernity still influences much of our culture. The difference I believe is that many PM’s don’t take the answers from just one persons perspective, but search for answers from a variety of sources. As much as they want “the” answer, PM’s are not overly satisfied with one but many answers.
I do believe modernity is over and is loosening its hold over this new age we are living in, with, and through. Yet, as I begin my new call in the northern Detroit burbs the remnant moderns are still alive and well trying there best to hold on to their comfort correct answers.
We are looking to transform a pole building into a worship space, which is kinda cool, however most of the people here think we need this if we are going to grow the church. My different view voice does not seem to matter. Their minds are fixed on this building eventhough they say the church is not a building.
Don… some of us Lutherans do get it and are working to build the kingdom with a little color.
Dennis,
Glad to hear it. Once in awhile I meet a Catholic who is not as clueless as I was growing up. I guess that underscores my whole discomfort with the whole labeling system that makes us “Moderns” or PMs. I think that both kinds of people have co-existed for century. What is new is that we can more perfectly collate ourselves into our appropriate stacks.
In some Pentecostal circles you hear people talk about what “Church Age” we are living in: Laodicean, Philadelphian, etc. What I never got about that is that John’s letters were all written to churches that were in existent at the same time, so why stretch it to mean that these are symbolic eras? It’s overanalysis, which can be a distraction from living in the now; being obendient to what we do know.
I’m sure there are people at Willow who are right where they are supposed to be. And I am also sure they have their share of pew-warming spectators. And Tom’s complaint about various Christian leaders and their leadership style mirrors many of us accross a broad spectrum. And it probably has nothing to do with the idea that we can be sure of something. It’s usually about what they are sure of.
I am at an AG nowadays, and it is very different from most of them. The individual pastor leaves a big imprint on his congregation, and it’s one we submit ourselves to voluntarily.
Hey Tom – glad to have you back. Glad to hear you’re doing well.
I can’t speak for Willow Creek, but I CAN speak for the attitudes that drove me away from the evangelical church — and Tom is right on the money.
I was going to another of the famous “mega-churches” – Akron, Ohio’s monstrous church called simply “The Chapel.” This was a church that — yes — claimed to have all the answers. For every question, there was an answer ready. For every problem, the solution was already figured out. And often the so-called “solutions” – given a little real-world experience – were laughable at best and stark foolish at worst.
You know, for me, the question of “freewill vs. pre-determination” — fifteen years ago this was what young Christians talked about when they were feeling philosophical — betrays a mindset that is out of touch with many of the real issues that are going on in the world. I don’t (for example) care about the promise of eternal life. The fact is, there are many many faiths in the world – and often the leaders of the non-Christian ones seem to have more insight — and speak more truth — than the Christian ones.
So – thank you, Tom, for another wonderful podcast. I am actually going to share your podcast with my friends who have been praying for me for the past ten years – hoping that I’ll come around and start going to The Chapel again. I think you have articulated something very true and very elusive. And I really appreciate it. It’s why I never miss a show.
Thanks, man.
Mark
This Jesus guy was very concerned about eternal life. After all, this one is temporary. I think that Luther would agree…
Tom – appreciate your podcast. (Especially love your intro as I am serving with one of the larger missionary radio organizations. I’ve shared it with my co-workers here in Singapore and we all get a good laugh at our own expense!)
While I won’t speak for Willow Creek or Billy Graham, I think that many of us in the “camp” you described would agree with you more than you let on when it comes to allowing for the juxtaposition of doubt and faith.
One of my favorite quotes is from Rick Warren (who I suppose you might put into the category you described), and while he does not directly include faith and doubt in this statement, I think it would fit: “God uses the opposite situation of each fruit to allow us a choice. You can’t claim to be good if you’ve never been tempted to be bad. You can’t claim to be faithful if you’ve never had the opportunity to be unfaithful. Integrity is built by defeating the temptation to be dishonest; humility grows when we refuse to be prideful; and endurance develops every time you reject the temptation to give up. Every time you defeat a temptation, you become more like Jesus!”, [Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Life].
To me it would be pretty useless to state I have faith and yet say that I cannot ask the questions that ultimately lead me to corroborate my faith.
Hello Tom,
Thanks for another fantastic podcast. I certainly get what you are saying, and managed to restrain myself from saying “yeah preach it brother” as I walked through my local shopping mall. As PM Xn I just can’t believe I have all the answers that I have a certainty to impart to other. Like you I am a fellow traveler, I meet others on the journey and we share our stories sometimes they learn from me and often I learn from them. I don’t know wether I will completely overhaul what I beleive next year or just tweak it a little bit. It depends on who i meet and what I learn. My life is doubt. I doubt I know everything, i doubt I’ve got it right I doubt that i’m even close. But I’m certain that God has more to teach.
Also, sometimes I wonder if the mega churches are just doing tricks with numbers. If a denomination with 100 congregations over a city has 30 people in each (3,000) we’d probably say they are dying out. But if a mega church with one congregation of 2,000 drawing from the same area we tend to say this is where the action is. Maybe we’ve all got some bits right, their are some bits we can improve and we’ve got some bits wrong.
Keep up the great work!
[…] >
Filed under: signal vs. noise — halo @ 3:38 pm
Tom @ WJ posted again regarding faith & doubt. I listened to this a couple of times and I have been wanting to write […]
This is the second time I have posted on this site in response to commentary about Willow Creek and places like it… It’s interesting to me because I dont consider myself a “mega-church” apologist but I guess in my own post-modernism I don’t respond well to blanket statements and generalizations. A few years ago I saw an interview with Nancy Beach who is one of the main programming people at Willow Creek. In this interview she talked about what continues to evolve as their “Axis” ministry, which is a direct response to people who like you and me might not relate to the “seeker sensitive” part of Willow Creek. I have been to Axis on a couple of occasions and I think you might be suprised at what happens in this gathering of a a couple thousand people. We did things like “lectio divina”, interacting with those around us… engaging in conversation during a part of the message… experiential prayer stations. Outside of the worship gathering the meet in small home groups and in mid-sized groups in bars and taverns and coffeeshops. There is a big connection to service in the community. Out of curiosity I went on the axis website (http://www.generationaxis.com) to see what they have been talking about in recent months. Some of the recent series have been things like “Deconstructing the Church” “Space Within” and “The Next Evolution of Axis”. Places like Willow Creek are not blind to the changing world. they continue to exist and evolve and ask questions and become just like you and I are trying to do.
This leads me to a growing concern that I have in the midst of this conversation about post-modernism and reforming the Church. I don’t mean this to be directed at you Tom. It simply comes from my ongoing conversations and blog reading and podcast listening. I know that the “modern church” has taken some things in directions that many of us do not want to go, and I know that some folks have been hurt and alienated in the process. However, I don’t think that ridiculing thousands of people and their expression of faith is the answer to anything. More and more I hear our brothers and sisters in this “emerging” conversation poking fun, mocking, and even lashing out at folks just because they happen to be involved in churches that (God forbid) sing modern praise and worship songs, or use a light show, or lots of videos, or crazy antics. It’s the same thing many “modern churches” do/did in the way they openly criticized “traditional” churches for being stuck in the past. Here’s an example of what I am talking about:
[Hill$ong Video](http://www.youtube.com/v/Nj6G7MC85Rw)
Someone obviously put a great deal of time and energy into judging a church that has been able to reach thousands of people. Sure, I listen to Brian Houston preach and I don’t get it. He kind of creeps me out actually, but I do have a great appreciation for a lot of the music that comes out of Hillsong Church. The interesting piece of all this is that so much of the “emerging conversation” is about contextual theology and contextual liturgy, etc. Context is huge. If this is true, then aren’t the “baby-boomer” “modern churches” in many ways doing the same thing that many of us are trying to do? Modern churches miss where a lot of us are coming from, but they are exactly where a lot of people are coming from.
For me the point of this whole conversation is not to be right, or to protest those who have gone before, highlighting their mistakes and shortcomings. For me this conversation is more about continuing to reform and change so that we are becoming a more and more authentic representation of the Church God intends for us to be. There is a lot we can learn from each other if we’re willing to stop creating larger divisions and actually talk about things openly. It takes time and can be immensely frustrating, but I truly believe that the time and effort will be worth it. My suspicion is that actually this is where most of us are actually coming from. I just believe that the road to reform is not ridicule. So the question I ask myself is, “How can I contribute to the conversation without hindering it?”
God’s Peace,
Brian Spahr
[ReformingChurch.com](http://www.reformingchurch.com)
I used to think that a congregation was a place where compatible minds gathered to agree that everyone else was wrong. After awhile, I discovered that they were more often just too polite to pick fights with each other over their differences.
I used to go to a church that had a serious left-right division. The church was a place where there was an acknowledged truce between the opposing political ideologies. We knew there was something bigger than our parties.
Where I am now, there is a similar rift but people are more willing to come out with it. It might be because we are trying to actually serve our community, and this expresses itself in different ways to different people. We are all trying to bring the Kingdom of God to our community, and both sides have something to offer.
Maybe the Mods and post-mods and whatever the rest of us are can bring what we have to offer without having it scorned. I think it’s possible. So far, it’s just unlikely. I recommend thick skin for the journey.
Just what I love, lots of discussion.
As far as Willow Creek goes, I plan on checking it out, including Axis. My reflections come in part from admissions by some megachurch leaders, like Walt Kallesstad (lutheran megachurch Community of Joy)and a few others, that they don’t get the transition going on right now and that they realize they have a problem.
On the other hand, I agree with the Brian that many in the pomo Christian movement have a real chip on their shoulders regarding any one trapped in the past – which often seems to include anything prior to 2000.
I guess my journey with Jesus is such that I don’t often find any easy answers and like in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (the books, not the abomination of a movie), even when I find the answer I’m not sure about the question. I always struggle with those who tell me they have THE answer without any regard or comprehension of the questions I have may have.
Thanks for all the comments.
Having been outside the church for several years experimenting with new ways of being church, I don’t get to hear ‘messages’ or sermons, but thanks for an extremely well articulated podcast which basically validates my lonely experience!
Having been outside the church for several years experimenting with new ways of ‘being church’ and being allowed to freely ask questions, I simply ejoyed this extremely well articulated podcast which basically validates my journey in a way I wish I could have articulated to others along the way!
Tom! More, more, more! Next installment, please!!!
TOM!!!!!! where are YOU?????
Waiting for more!!!
[…] o write this blog entry. Listened to interesting Podcasts by Tom Lyberg, a Lutheran pastor https://www.wiredjesus.com/?p=117. He is in Chicago and was discussing how Moderns like Billy Graham and Willow […]
[…] office to write this blog entry. Listened to interesting Podcasts by Tom Lyberg, a Lutheran pastor https://www.wiredjesus.com/?p=117. He is in Chicago and was discussing how Moderns like Billy Graham and Willow Creek Church talk about “the certain […]
[…] o write this blog entry. Listened to interesting Podcasts by Tom Lyberg, a Lutheran pastor https://www.wiredjesus.com/?p=117. He is in Chicago and was discussing how Moderns like Billy Graham and Willow […]